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Csimbi
I post too much
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Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.
You guys know that religion is religion, right?
There is no logic in it, whatsoever.
You either believe something or not.
It's much like love: it's either there, or not. No way to force it either way.
It's part of the culture where you grow up or live; you either accept it or find a different one that better suits your personal preferences, the same way as you pick your partner for life.
Therefore, all arguments trying to convince each other with logic is a waste of time.
Go and do something useful instead of bickering here like little bitches.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | I might as well explain my own beliefs, it's not like he'll be able to convince me otherwise.
>"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
And I'm not going to claim to have sufficient understanding of the trinity of God, but I fully believe in it. I have enough understanding to understand it myself, which is the most important thing for me, of course. I wish I understood it to the point of explaining it to others, but I'm not there yet.
>can you present some evidence for it, from Jesus' words?
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>I might as well explain my own beliefs, it's not like he'll be able to convince me otherwise.
indeed, "achieving certitude cannot occur by virtue of the person's own ability, it is solely a gift from God that is granted to people as a favor upon them."
>I wish I understood it to the point of explaining it to others, but I'm not there yet.
i hope it did not miss you that our Book, the Qur'an, equips us with the knowledge to ascertain these beliefs on rational and spiritual grounds, giving us sufficient proofs and evidences, as well as instructing us on engaging others in dialogue with those instructions in a sufficient manner.
>>can you present some evidence for it, from Jesus' words?
From John 10:
all right so before i get started i need to make a few objections to this.
how do you show that these are authentic narrations attributed to Jesus? we have narrations attributed to our Prophet ﷺ as well, and a comprehensive science on evaluating these hadiths (including their chain of narration, and the grading of their authenticity).
so Islamically, we not only have instruction and support for these narrations in the Qur'an -- but we also have a comprehensive science for authenticating these narrations and even discerning fabrications.
we don't simply accept narrations because they're attributed to a Prophet of God.
especially a narration that maybe outside of the parameters of Prophethood (i.e. accusing Prophets of grave sins, things they would never do)
so i will stress that we have a very particular method for admitting these narrations.
can you tell me who narrated these things, and the chain of narrations?
we have massive reports that are all in agreement and by different reporters of these narrations. such an example is attached at the bottom, demonstrating the various nodes of the chain of transmission of a narration -- all of which are in agreement.
this is known as mutawatir reporting;
mutawatir is:
1 – It should have been narrated by a large number
2 – The number should be so large that it is impossible that they could have agreed upon a lie.
3 – There should be a large number of narrators at every stage of the chain of narration (isnaad), so it should have been narrated by a large number from a large number, all the way back to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
4 – It should be based on what they saw or heard, so they should say, “We heard” or “We saw”, because if it is not like that it is possible for error to creep in, so it is not mutawaatir.
i will stress again that the terminus ad quem for the authoring of the current new testament is approximately 300CE -- and you do not have a chain of narrators or reports on those narrators to show how these narrations you attribute to Jesus, as having authentically reached you and having been preserved.
>The Hadith Critical Methodology: A brief look at how Hadith are authenticated in the Islamic tradition.
https://ponderingislam.com/2015/01/01/the-hadith-critical-methodology-a-brief-look-at-how-hadith-are-authenticated-in-the-islamic-tradition/
>Hadith and The Myth of the Telephone Gam
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/canon/hadith-the-myth-of-the-telephone-game/
>The Realism of Hadith: An Authentic Human Experience
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/canon/hadith/the-realism-of-hadith-an-authentic-human-experience/
here are articles that, hopefully, can give you better elucidation as to our methodology for evaluating and authenticating these narrations.
someone might say: "but im not a muslim so these dont apply to me and i don't care"
yes i am aware of this, but i am trying to highlight to you the importance of testimony being authentic and having an authentic narration, and evidence for these things in order to accept them.
in the case of the physical miracles of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, even these are mutawatir -- that is, we have numerous, mass reportings, and we know the individuals who reported these to be honest and reliable narrators, and that these narrations continue for generations with no change.
see the bottom of the post for examples of 'physical miracles'.
i hope we have sufficiently covered the objections i am making for why i can not say this is an authentic narration. however, there may be truth in it -- this is something God has confirmed for us. He also confirmed for us that you have forgotten portions, and other portions have been corrupted/fabricated.
we have sufficient testimonies and evidences that operate as tertiary evidences for the truths of Islam.
that is, these evidences were not employed to prove Islam to the masses historically, and are not part of the primary and main cases that God and His Messenger ﷺ make for Islam. that is, our religion does not prove itself by disproving yours, or quoting your Bible -- our Prophet ﷺ and the Qur'an are sufficient evidences for all of our claims, and for validating your claims as authentically from God.
now, I will move on to addressing your evidence. thank you for quoting so much!
| HackOtaku wrote: |
From
(John 10:23-30)
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon.
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe.
The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
I and the Father are one.”
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God"
So not only did Jesus say that he and his Father are one, but the Jews understood his claim.
|
so, we can see from John 10, that the audience Jesus is addressing are the Jews.
Jesus keeps encountering these Jews, and we have seen allegedly Jesus say in John previously:
(John 8:42-47)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
here, Jesus says that the Jews do not hear him, because they do not believe.
they misunderstand him because of it, and charge him with lies.
this is a regular habit for the Jews, so I can not accept their statement as truthful about Jesus "claiming to be God" for many reasons, but two of which are:
that Jesus is not making these, nor an angel or such--
that the ones making these claims are marked by Jesus as liars who do not believe or understand.
so i can not admit their testimony -- except as evidence that Jesus was definitely not claiming to be God. if he was doing this, then he would've been understood by them -- contrary to his condemnation of their quality of being blinded by disbelief
i will go further with the evidence from two angles:
1) the context of the passage
2) the context of the particular word itself
both of these evidences support each other and our conclusion
1) Jesus says
(John 10:28-29)
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
while you can raise a theological contradiction here -- saying that the Son is the Father (which is contrary to the trinity doctrine) i will presume the scope here is more broad.
but as there is no reliable method that the disciples, or Jesus, taught to interpret these verses (or any) -- the interpretations of these verses have varied over history and congregation. the trinitarian view not really being supported by the scripture, as it was adopted after the scripture was written.
with that said, the context of the prior verses show that God has given Jesus a purpose, and that purpose is united with God's purpose. the context matters here -- Jesus didn't simply say "I and father are one";
he gave an entire example to teach a lesson that he is united with God in purpose. this is true of every Prophet.
2) Jesus says
(John 10:30)
egō kai ho Patēr hen esmen
a perfectly acceptable translation of this is, "I and my Father are one"; but this has many various interpretations and is not the most accurate translation (especially given the context).
that is, it can be wrongfully misinterpreted to "I and my father are one [in person]"
which would come as
egō kai ho Patēr heis esmen
that is -- were Jesus to say, "heis", it would be a claim to being one in person, but as it says "hen", the meaning is "one in purpose" or "united".
this is used again here:
(John 17:20-23)
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
this, here, is the same word -- showing that Jesus is talking about "one in purpose" or "being united in purpose".
| HackOtaku wrote: | Additionally:
-----
(John 16:4-12)
I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you,
but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things.
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
about sin, because people do not believe in me;
about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you
------
The Spirit he is referring to here is the Advocate, The Holy Spirit. He also claims here that all that belongs to The Father is his. Do prophets make claims to all that The Father has? I don't recall any prophet to be so bold as that. This isn't the first time Jesus has made a point to single himself as something different from a prophet.
I understand your issue with the Trinity, I don't fault you at all for it. I believe in it even though I do not believe I will be able to fully understand it. That's the nature of God though, awesome, mysterious, and not at all easy to understand by any stretch. I don't count the level of complication the Trinity adds to the understanding of God's nature against its validity though. If anything, it being such a complicated and difficult to grasp concept adds more credibility to it. That's what I was getting at with the CS Lewis quote before. If Christians were just making stuff up, of course it would be easier and we'd be better off if we simplified God down, but that's not the way God is. |
>The Spirit he is referring to here is the Advocate, The Holy Spirit.
the oldest manuscripts say "the Spirit" -- "holy" is one added to the later manuscripts; there are many other instances of such additions.
> He also claims here that all that belongs to The Father is his.
i think you are taking this statement out of its scope; the greek doesn't give that as an unequivocal meaning, nor does the remainder of John:
(John 17:10)
"all mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them."
(John 3:35)
"the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand."
(John 13:3)
"Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God,"
so we have no problem with this interpretation and statement, that God has given all to Jesus to teach, or whatever. yes, this is precisely the role of the Prophets.
>This isn't the first time Jesus has made a point to single himself as something different from a prophet.
we agree that Jesus is honored in a special station, that he is one of the mightiest messengers of God, and was gifted with many unique things.
we have, in Islam, unequivocal statements on the status of Jesus -- not vague, implicit statements that took hundreds of years of interpretation and changing tradition to arrive at as being a claim to divinity, or anything of the sort.
Among other things, Jesus mentions the Paraclete/Advocate in various places, and the clearest of what he mentions is where he says:
‘But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit that my Father shall send in my name, he shall teach you everything and he shall remind you of everything I have said to you.’
He also says: ‘Truly, it is for your good that I go away, for if I do not go, the Paraclete shall not come to you. But when I go away, I shall send him to you.
And when he comes, he shall rebuke the world for sin and for judgement.
As for sin, because they did not believe in me. And as for judgement, so that this world be judged.’
Then he says: ‘When that Spirit of truth comes, he shall guide you into all truth, for he shall not talk of himself, but he shall speak whatever he shall hear and he shall inform you of whatever shall come forth.
And he shall praise me, for he shall take of that which is in me and he shall inform you.’
the truth has indeed come to light by this statement. this is truly Christ’s annunciation of Muḥammad, may the best of blessings and peace be upon him,
because none has come after Christ who claimed to be a prophet, praised Jesus and exerted every possible effort in extolling him,
who confirmed him in his prophethood, rebuked the world for the sin of unbelief, fought with the Jews and rebuked them for calling Jesus a liar,
who denounced the worship of idols as disgraceful, informed people that they would be judged on the Day of Resurrection and called to account,
who taught people the best manners and the most noble morals,
and whose law appeared and became widespread in both deserts and cultivated regions like the laws of other prophets before him--except Muḥammad, may God bless him and grant him peace.
it is also vital to note that the words Jesus is using here:
>But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
can only apply to Muhammad ﷺ -- who was known before Prophethood for his upright character, and known as "The Honest, the Truthful".
and, the verse (John 14:16) says:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another (allon) advocate to help you and be with you forever—
allon means another. but greek has different words for 'another'-- one such being "another of a different type [hetero]", and this one "another of the same (allon)" -- were this to indicate the coming of another Prophet, another man, then allon, another of the same type as Jesus, is accurate. but if it was indicating a spirit, then hetero would have been used.
every Muslim knows that Muhammad ﷺ told us 'what is yet to come'
these words, also, 'he will not speak on his own, he will only speak what he hears'
these are all masculine pronouns. the pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit are not masculine. in the old testament, the Holy Spirit is feminine, and elsewhere in John it is neuter, such as
(John 1:32)
Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. [Jesus]"
which indicates that the Holy Spirit was around before Jesus and before his departure!
the Spirit of Truth, the Paraclete, will come after Jesus -- and that is what Muhammad ﷺ did; the Qur'an is a complete guidance into all truth, and Muhammad's ﷺ guidance remains with us forever in the form of his Sunnah; he is with us forever, and guided us into all truth.
but it is not only the masculine pronouns that are of interest in
'he will not speak on his own, he will only speak what he hears'
for one, you need lips and ears to speak and hear -- thus this is a physical person.
but also, ths is actually an allusion to the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18, the Prophet like Moses.
God says,
(Deuteronomy 18:18)
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
no one can deny that the Arabs are the brethren of the Israelites. this Prophet is still expected at the beginning of John, at the time of Jesus:
(John 1:19-24)
Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”
They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
so here are three distinct personalities expected:
1) The Messiah
2) That Prophet of Deuteronomy Like Moses (check the footnotes of the verse yourself)
3) Elijah
this Prophecy of a Prophet to come is yet to be fulfilled at the coming of the Messiah;
Jesus reiterates the qualities of that Prophet again, and expounds with more qualities -- all of which Muhammad ﷺ fulfilled.
[the Holy Qur'an chapter 7, verse 157-158]
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet,
whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel,
who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong
and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil
and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them.
So they who have believed in him, honored him,
supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him
- it is those who will be the successful.
Say, (O Muhammadﷺ) "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of God to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth.
There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death."
So believe in God and His Messenger,
the unlettered prophet, who believes in God and His words,
and follow him that you may be guided.
[the Holy Qur'an chapter 61, verse 6]
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said,
"O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of God to you confirming what came before me of the Torah
and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."
But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."
(for anyone interested in exploring these topics further)
| Quote: | PROOFS OF PROPHETHOOD:
>Accurate Predictions: A Sign of True Prophethood
https://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2016/03/27/accurate-predictions-a-sign-of-true-prophethood/
>The Physical Miracles of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-physical-miracles-of-prophet-muhammad/
>The Prophecies of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-prophecies-of-prophet-muhammad/
>The Character of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-character-of-prophet-muhammad/
>An Ethical and Historical Necessity
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/an-ethical-and-historical-necessity-the-proofs-of-prophethood-series/
>The Message of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-message-of-prophet-muhammad/
SERIES INFOGRAPHICS
>Infographic - Laying the Groundwork for the Coming of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/laying-the-groundwork-for-the-coming-of-prophet-muhammad-infographic/
>Infographic - Character of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-character-of-prophet-muhammad-infographic/
>Infographic - Message of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-message-of-prophet-muhammad-infographic/
>Infographic - Accomplishments of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/mohammad-elshinawy/the-accomplishments-of-the-prophet-muhammad-infographic/ |
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
 Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Csimbi wrote: | Interesting.
You guys know that religion is religion, right?
There is no logic in it, whatsoever.
You either believe something or not.
It's much like love: it's either there, or not. No way to force it either way.
It's part of the culture where you grow up or live; you either accept it or find a different one that better suits your personal preferences, the same way as you pick your partner for life.
Therefore, all arguments trying to convince each other with logic is a waste of time.
Go and do something useful instead of bickering here like little bitches. |
Except I'm not bickering, just stating my beliefs. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
As for who wrote the book of John, I believe it was one of the 12 apostles. I believe in the authenticity of the new testament, and like you pointed out, I'm not bound by Islamic law as to what to accept. I think the early church leaders correctly chose which accounts became canon. I don't have anything I could use as hard evidence for it, but that's also not really why I'm here.
In regards to him saying that he and the father are one, I agree, he is saying that he and The Father have the same purpose, while not saying they are the same person. His will and The Father's will are the same, because they are both of the same essence, the same essence as The Holy Spirit, another person of the Godhead.
And I know that you think Muhammad is the paracletos mentioned by Christ, and since I am not here for debate, I'm just going to let you keep believing that, but I believe the holy spirit is the paracletos sent from heaven to help comfort and affirm belief in Christ. I have personally experienced this, which is why I am so sure about Christ's divinity and am ready to accept his gift of salvation.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Again, you seem to be of the opinion that I am here to debate or "prove" anything, I am not. I have my beliefs, you have yours, and God will judge us when it's all said and done. In regards to the holy spirit and that, I can't tell you why you and others have not had a similar experience, that's between you and God, really. I've said what I believe in, I don't think there's much more I need to do. I'm not going to attempt to prove validity of John or anything else, surely there are better minds that you've already discredited that have tried.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | Again, you seem to be of the opinion that I am here to debate or "prove" anything, I am not. I have my beliefs, you have yours, and God will judge us when it's all said and done. In regards to the holy spirit and that, I can't tell you why you and others have not had a similar experience, that's between you and God, really. I've said what I believe in, I don't think there's much more I need to do. I'm not going to attempt to prove validity of John or anything else, surely there are better minds that you've already discredited that have tried. |
please do get back to me after you've checked out some of the stuff i've sent.
i am sincerely imploring you for an answer to the salvation you claim.
please don't ignore my requests -- i am sure you would not love it done to you, especially when you feel you have made a case for yourself in the name of God.
| HackOtaku wrote: | | I understand your issue with the Trinity, I don't fault you at all for it. I believe in it even though I do not believe I will be able to fully understand it. That's the nature of God though, awesome, mysterious, and not at all easy to understand by any stretch. I don't count the level of complication the Trinity adds to the understanding of God's nature against its validity though. If anything, it being such a complicated and difficult to grasp concept adds more credibility to it. That's what I was getting at with the CS Lewis quote before. If Christians were just making stuff up, of course it would be easier and we'd be better off if we simplified God down, but that's not the way God is. |
>I believe in it even though I do not believe I will be able to fully understand it.
see, i don't understand how to accept something without being able to understand it in some form -- and this is the case of the trinity (that it can not be understood).
i genuinely don't understand the mechanism for validating such a thing.
God should be able to provide mechanisms for validation that are evident and clear. right?
we have such things in Qur'an.
>That's the nature of God though, awesome, mysterious, and not at all easy to understand by any stretch.
well i'm sure we will agree readily that God, simply enough, can't be understood; He is not comparable to anything. this is not simple by any means.
His qualities and attributes can be conveyed to us by Him in a way that we can appreciate and understand our relationship with Him in a way that is satisfying to the heart, mind, and spirit.
we do not deny that He can express Himself and His attributes in a way that we can comprehend, appreciate, and explain. this doesn't mean we claim He is "simple", or "understood".
but we do accept Him on clear grounds, and affirm what His revelation conveys to appreciate His nature with the reasoning and rationality He provided us.
>I don't count the level of complication the Trinity adds to the understanding of God's nature against its validity though.
do you count a rational and conceivable and appreciable explanation given by the Almighty as to His nature in a way that His creation can acknowledge and act upon -- a coherent description with consistent identity and essence -- as being evidence against the validity of divinely revealed monotheism?
for example-- do you believe in circles with many vertices? if you can't grasp this, well don't worry, it's a difficult and complex subject to grasp--but that doesn't remove credibility from its existence......... does it? (hint: definitely)
logic predicates for rational impossibilities (that which the mind has room for, but has no room for existing as real; something that exists without a coherent essence or identity); one such predication would be the law of noncontradiction (ex. a given proposition can not be both "false" and "not false"; there is no coherent identity to such propositions)
thus, such a 'difficult to grasp', 'complex' concept like a 'many-vertices-circle' is not some that can be actualised into existence, as, while having semantic implications, still lacks coherent essence or identity.
and there can be no mechanism for accepting this concept over the validity of a basic, euclidean circle (which is without vertices).
like there are no grounds for rejecting a rationally coherent description of a circle, there also stands no grounds for rejecting the credibility of a coherent and rational description of God's attributes that He reveals from Himself.
these attributes are prevalent in the Qur'an, but also in the Tanakh, in unequivocal statements that have a long tradition of being comprehended by the Prophets and those people that they introduced these teachings and prophetic traditions to.
these statements can not be rejected for statements that are contrary to what is established (otherwise they are contradictory and logically inconsistent and incoherent, and lose their form of identity)
or for statements that are not given authority from God,
or equivocal and implicit statements with interpretation of the vague (that can easily be interpreted consistent with prior unequivocal statements -- and indeed, have a long history of being interpreted in a unitarian sense)
that is, you should not be able to reject the clear and unequivocal statements such as those in the Tanakh, that are consistent and have a long tradition of rational mechanisms for their validation,
for equivocal statements that contradict the established unequivocal statements that can only arrive contrary to the unequivocal statements after centuries of men developing trinitarian traditions
>If Christians were just making stuff up, of course it would be easier and we'd be better off if we simplified God down,
well we have no authority to 'simplify God down', so i don't understand how you can claim to. God is beyond-being, and can not be experienced directly;
so we must come to know Him through the revelation He provides for us.
the only authority for "simplifying" these descriptions, is God Almighty -- not councils who are innovating a creed and trinity that had no authentication or declaration from God Almighty.
>but that's not the way God is.
i'd have to object to "God is" coming from any other authority than God; including CS Lewis and the numerous innovators of the trinity.
God is not a Lord of Contradiction or confusion -- so He would not give instruction or description that has much contradiction in it. this is not something "complex" that adds to validity;
God is the Lord who created us with reason; He is the best to make an appeal to us as to His nature, and to say "God is:", in a coherent, consistent way that appeals to our rational mind and our hearts.
however, someone unfit for this-- uninspired men, for example -- would easily propose concepts of God that are unnatural, which the mind and hearts would reject.
the Creator of our minds and hearts would be the Best Provider for comprehension that satisfies and convinces us. there would be no room for simplifying it, and no authority for us to do so by our own inclinations.
this is a basic test for falsification that God gives:
[the Holy Qur'an, chapter 4, verse 82]
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than God, they would have found within it much contradiction."
such incoherence, and inconsistency, can not belong to the word of God or descriptions given by Him. yet it would be a mark of man's fabrications.
the Tanakh makes similar statements, which i think are beautifully relevant:
(Psalm 19:7)
The instructions of the LORD are perfect, reviving the soul. The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
(Psalm 18:30)
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.
(Psalm 119:130)
The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.
if you are interested, a friend just finished editing this short PDF (~30 pages) of logical proofs against the trinity to demonstrate that it is without coherent essence or identity,
and thus there are no rational or real mechanisms to validate it as something that does (or can logically and consistently) exist.
The Logical Proofs against the Trinity
filedropper.com/thelogicalproofsagainstthetrinity
God's word is perfect, this includes logically and consistently, and in its appeal to the human faculties.
i simply don't understand how you can reconcile these clear statements that God established over a 1300 year period prior to Jesus-- via vague, implicit, equivocal statements, with a the trinitarian interpretation that took hundreds of years to develop:
(I Kings 8:27)
But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
(Hosea 11:9)
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.
I will not come against their cities.
(II Chronicles 6:18)
"But can you, O God, really live on earth among men and women? Not even all of heaven is large enough to hold you, so how can this Temple that I have built be large enough?
(Numbers 23:19)
“God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind.”
(Deuteronomy 6:4)
“Hear O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.”
(I Samuel 2:2)
“There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee;
neither is there any Rock like our God.”
(I Samuel 15:29)
“The Eternal One of Israel will not lie nor change His mind:
for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
(Isaiah 40:18)
“To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare unto Him?”
(Isaiah 40:25)
“To whom will then you liken Me, that I should be his equal?” says the Holy One.
(Isaiah 42:8)
“I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another. Neither My praise to graven images!”
(Isaiah 43:11)
Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.
(Isaiah 44:6-8)
This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty,
“I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God!
Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before Me…Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
(Isaiah 44:24)
So said the Lord, your Redeemer, the One who formed you from the womb,
“I am the Lord Who makes everything, Who stretched forth the heavens alone, Who spread out the earth by Myself.”
(Isaiah 46:5)
“To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may be alike?”
(Isaiah 46:9)
“Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.”
(Psalm 146:3)
“Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation!”
(Nehemiah 9:6)
“You alone are the Lord;
You made the heavens,
the heavens of the heavens and all their host,
the earth and all that is upon it,
the seas and all that is in them,
and You give life to them all,
and the heavenly host bow down before You.”
(I Chronicles 17:20)
“O Lord, there is none like You,
neither is there any God beside You,
according to all that we have heard with our ears!”
| HackOtaku wrote: | As for who wrote the book of John, I believe it was one of the 12 apostles. I believe in the authenticity of the new testament, and like you pointed out, I'm not bound by Islamic law as to what to accept. I think the early church leaders correctly chose which accounts became canon. I don't have anything I could use as hard evidence for it, but that's also not really why I'm here.
In regards to him saying that he and the father are one, I agree, he is saying that he and The Father have the same purpose, while not saying they are the same person. His will and The Father's will are the same, because they are both of the same essence, the same essence as The Holy Spirit, another person of the Godhead.
And I know that you think Muhammad is the paracletos mentioned by Christ, and since I am not here for debate, I'm just going to let you keep believing that, but I believe the holy spirit is the paracletos sent from heaven to help comfort and affirm belief in Christ. I have personally experienced this, which is why I am so sure about Christ's divinity and am ready to accept his gift of salvation. |
>As for who wrote the book of John, I believe it was one of the 12 apostles.
do you have evidence of this? there doesn't seem to be any. it's just a belief that is propagated. i've done a bit of research on this topic, and if i could've confirmed this has established by evidence then it would've been a lot easier for me to stay with my christian upbringing.
however, i simply could not. here are recent videos that discuss this topic, and show that
1) the Islamic method, and indeed, even basic methods for authenticating narrations and their transmissions as authentic, as well as preserving them, refuse to admit the 4 new testament gospels as having been written by who they claim, especially as they circulated without their current titles (according to John/Mark/Luke for instance)
2) the Christian method primarily relies on assumption and guess work, and have no evidence that is supported by historians to validate these claims of authorship that came much after the distribution of these documents. this is in contrast to your a-historic axiom that the church fathers can or have authenticated these claims in any way
>Who Wrote the Gospel of John?
youtu.be/kU6CdW3lF_w
>Who Wrote the Gospel of Mark?
youtu.be/xybQmzH07MY
>Who Wrote the Gospel of Matthew?
youtu.be/sBV9lrqup8A
>Who Wrote the Gospel of Luke?
youtu.be/L9vl4ZIdhdw
i hope you can spend the time to appreciate these very thorough refutations of the authenticity of the claim that John wrote that Gospel. i beileved it when i was told to believe it, but when i inspected the evidence -- it simlpy isn't there.
these videos, btw, establish the claims put forward as evidence for "John/Mark/etc wrote these" , and give thorough refutations of them -- i really think you will learn a lot about the claims and evidences Christianity proposes (and to muslims) to 'prove' these authorships.
>In regards to him saying that he and the father are one, I agree, he is saying that he and The Father have the same purpose, while not saying they are the same person. His will and The Father's will are the same,
see, the statement is equivocal. thus it can not be grounds for a claim to divinity;
this is why, i agree with all of the above. the purpose of a Prophet is to do the will of the Lord.
see attached for more info; this is a claim that Jesus is a Muslim by being united with the will of God that He submitted to and was sent to fulfill.
>because they are both of the same essence, the same essence as The Holy Spirit, another person of the Godhead.
these attached statements are very clear. but there are no statements you can refer to for what you are saying Jesus instructed here
>And I know that you think Muhammad is the paracletos mentioned by Christ,
there are numerous, sufficient evidences for this. some of which i gave, and many more that you have yet to assess. the case for this is much stronger than the claim you believe, which i made a thorough refutation of:
>the holy spirit is the paracletos sent from heaven to help comfort and affirm belief in Christ.
i would love if you could present a solution to those refutations, instead of ignoring these contentions and evidences i have provided for my case and against yours.
>I have personally experienced this, which is why I am so sure about Christ's divinity and am ready to accept his gift of salvation.
see, many people from many religions claim this. it isn't a litmus for anything, and certainly we can provide these feelings for ourselves and 'validate' anything, even falsehoods.
indeed, I have personally witnessed by God, many Christians claim the same as you, who then go on to embrace Islam. Why didn't the Holy Spirit comfort them?
as someone who was raised with 'feeling the holy spirit' -- i know exactly what you mean. it's not a valid statement, it's self-induced, and anyone can do it in the right circumstances. even cults take advantage of this.
however, as someone who has experienced the rahmah of Allah the Most merciful; and who has witnessed devout Christians moved by the epiphany of embracing Islam and the simple utterance of a phrase -- I simply don't understand the point you are trying to make here.
>Emotional Shahada with Sh Yusuf Estes
youtu.be/09I2Wq2iyF0
>Very Emotional Shahada - Tears of Joy Upon Converting to Islam
youtu.be/XYzFlFY0qq4
you can experience so many shahadah videos like this, and find tons on the internet. i have seen so many in person from former Christians -- especially those who claim to be 'comforted by the holy spirit', and are now better Muslims than I.
what, too, is not explained is that these Christians who are supposed to be comforted by the Holy Spirit, which you claim would fulfill such things -- never fulfilled what you are claiming is fulfilled;
Christians are not guided into all truth or complete knowledge, and are in disagreement with each other. these interpretations took centuries to develop, and indeed, the evidences that have been cited are some of the numerous evidences cited that Jesus prophecised of another Prophet to come after him, to guide into all truth --thus he repeated the Deuteronomy Prophecy.
why haven't you answered why these Prophecies are so clearly fulfilled by Muhammad ﷺ ? no one else in history fulfills them better and claims to do so.
another thing that is not explained, is that the Christians that you claim are comforted by the Holy Spirit -- we claim the true knowledge from the Holy Spirit of God.
God presented many challenges in the Qur'an, especially to the Christians who accuse the Qur'an as not being a revelation from God, and who accuse Muhammad ﷺ of not being a Prophet --
and those Christians who were, as you insist, 'comforted by the Holy Spirit' could not counter God's true testimony that He strengthened Muhammad ﷺ with the Pure and Holy Spirit, and delivered to him guidance from Him.
they could not meet any of the challenges. they still haven't.
and these are the same Christians who claim that the Holy Spirit would enable them to speak in tongues, but never matched the eloquence of the Qur'an in over 1400 years -- or even when they debated the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ.
indeed, so many companions of the Prophet ﷺ were former Christians -- much more than 12. and we have a methodology for presenting these narrations and proving them as authentic to you.
so which of the favours of your Lord do you deny?
Jesus testifies to Muhammad ﷺ and commands to follow him.
surely, if you love Jesus, you should exhaust all possibilities and explanations and proofs before you simply dismiss instruction for your benefit.
let me know if the two shahada videos i sent above are like what you went through with your experiences with the "holy spirit". i would appreciate if you spent the time to watch them fully.
the other videos on the authorship of the gospels are much longer to digest, but please do take the time for them too.
perhaps then, you can help me with understanding why I, and so many other people born in Christian families and communities and upbringings, simply could not find this 'holy spirit' the way you have, when we KNOW how sincere we were in imploring God in our search for truth -- and the only answer we received, after seeking Him, that was completely acceptable to us, was Islam. why didn't God send a Holy Spirit?
do you know how many times a day I pray to God for His guidance? for His help? for His way that bestows grace??????
WHY DONT I GET THAT BUT YOU DO??????????? why would you be given such an 'experience' if that's all it takes, and yet we are convinced in every way of something that doesn't offer salvation according to you!
how is this fair?????? Islam offers itself to everyone, and they are free to accept or deny the proofs and evidences for their own benefit or their own destruction.
i genuinely do not understand how this is "GOD IS LOVE"
but you can't watch those videos and tell me these people don't love God and aren't crying for His sake.
[the Holy Qur'an, chapter 5, verse 83]
And when they hear what was revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears, as they recognize the truth in it.
They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so count us among the witnesses."
truly, this religion is the invitation to God's love, and is a perfect example of God's love for us.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: |
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People who are interested in discussion say a little and leave enough room for the other to reply. You are clearly proselytizing Islam and only seek to attempt to try and "prove" Islam, so you're not really interested in actual discussion. I've said my beliefs, I can't "prove" to you I believe in them. If you think there is insufficient evidence for Christianity, that is your business.
If there is a question you want me to answer in regards to my beliefs, ask. So far I have answered. I'm not interested in answering any questions in which I "prove" to you anything, for example "prove the authenticity of the gospel of John".
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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please do get back to me after you've checked out some of the stuff i've sent.
i am sincerely imploring you for an answer to the salvation you claim.
please don't ignore my requests -- i am sure you would not love it done to you, especially when you feel you have made a case for yourself in the name of God.
| HackOtaku wrote: | People who are interested in discussion say a little and leave enough room for the other to reply. You are clearly proselytizing Islam and only seek to attempt to try and "prove" Islam, so you're not really interested in actual discussion. I've said my beliefs, I can't "prove" to you I believe in them. If you think there is insufficient evidence for Christianity, that is your business.
If there is a question you want me to answer in regards to my beliefs, ask. So far I have answered. I'm not interested in answering any questions in which I "prove" to you anything, for example "prove the authenticity of the gospel of John". |
...what?
this is so hurtful bro.
i am a slave of the Most Loving, the God Who is Love and Peace and Mercy
i am so ready and happy any time for you to reply to me and talk to me about Him. that is why it is so hurtful for you to attack me like this, and to treat me so callously and insultingly.
i love you because that's what my God calls me to do.
i call you to the truth, i gave you sincere replies, and i am so ready for anything you want to say in any way you so choose.
i expected this done back to me. but i guess that is not the case.
it doesn't seem like you have any intention on addressing anything i've actually said. just saying you did when you didn't, i asked a lot of questions and you ignored basically all of them.
it seems you are interested just in being an islamophobe; hating and hurting your neighbor, and thinking he isn't worth anything but your negative assumption and poisoning of the well.
> I'm not interested in answering any questions in which I "prove" to you anything,
this is hypocrisy when you know your Bible commands you to do this.
all you are doing is avoiding rational, honest and fair discourse in the name of a truthful, loving God.
bear witness that we love God and submit to Him alone. we Love Him and Keep His commandments; where did you?
may God guide you. i won't shy away from any topics or questions you care to ask, so feel free to approach me any time.
my door is open, and i don't understand this animosity or why you insist on closing the door on me and declaring me in hellfire.
| Quote: | O Christ-worshipers! We want an answer to our question [from your wise ones],
If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act, what kind of god is this?
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him!
Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?
Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?
Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed?
Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard him while he wailed?
How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,
How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?
How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear,
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?
What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this [what you call] a god?
High Exalted be God Almighty above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
O Cross-worshipers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?
Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it?
Since the Lord was crucified on it, and his hands were fastened to it?
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
Why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
Since the grave contained your god in it?
So Christ-worshiper, open your eyes,
This is what the matter is all about. |
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Islamaphobe? I'm not afraid of Islam, you do you. I'm just not interested in being prothlesized to, which I stated in the beginning and you ignored anyway.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | Islamaphobe? I'm not afraid of Islam, you do you. I'm just not interested in being prothlesized to, which I stated in the beginning and you ignored anyway. |
yeah you are refusing to give dialogue with me and answer any of my points and are ignoring a lot of the discussion i've presented
all you are doing is avoiding rational, honest and fair discourse in the name of a truthful, loving God.
just because of my beliefs
this is islamophobia. it is not 'oh im scared of muslims', it's bias and prejudice.
in short, you wouldn't love it done to yourself, but you do it to me because i am muslim.
again, you just ignore what i say and dismiss what has been said to you.
please do get back to me after you've checked out some of the stuff i've sent.
i am sincerely imploring you for an answer to the salvation you claim.
please don't ignore my requests -- i am sure you would not love it done to you, especially when you feel you have made a case for yourself in the name of God.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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Posts: 228
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I have already stated that I will answer any questions regarding my beliefs, and I have done so. If you feel as though a question hasn't been answered, ask again. However, I am not interested in debate, as I have already clearly said
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | I have already stated that I will answer any questions regarding my beliefs, and I have done so. If you feel as though a question hasn't been answered, ask again. However, I am not interested in debate, as I have already clearly said, so any question that is going to spiral into a pointless back and forth isn't worth answering. |
you haven't though
please answer my questions, thanks.
this isn't a debate. i am so sorry you are opposed to the both of us approaching the truth together, and that you believe my religion to be the problem.
i gave adequate responses to everything you said, breaking it down. i asked many questions, put many points, even gave you videos -- so i that i could try and understand what you tried to tell me
instead of responding, you just ignore me and insist you've answered me.
come off it. this is insulting behaviour, and someone who cares to share the truth or cares for loving their neighbor, would not act like this.
you didn't answer my questions. i'm sorry you have a double standard where i clearly read and reply to you, and you clearly don't read or reply to anything.
all you are doing is avoiding rational, honest and fair discourse in the name of a truthful, loving God.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| What questions, then? Because I asked you to repeat them and you still haven't. Give a simple and direct question without making it a wall of text, as there's a good chance I may have overlooked something you asked while skimming through.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | What questions, then? Because I asked you to repeat them and you still haven't. Give a simple and direct question without making it a wall of text, as there's a good chance I may have overlooked something you asked while skimming through. |
you are more than welcomed to read my posts
like i have read yours
thank you!
and thank you for admitting you skimmed instead of reading.
Love is skimming i guess
(Matthew 7:12)
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: | | What questions, then? Because I asked you to repeat them and you still haven't. Give a simple and direct question without making it a wall of text, as there's a good chance I may have overlooked something you asked while skimming through. |
you are more than welcomed to read my posts
like i have read yours
thank you!
and thank you for admitting you skimmed instead of reading.
Love is skimming i guess |
So, you don't have any questions. The only one I can see is "Why do you get this and I don't" which I already answered. Also when you post things that are "refutations", you are absolutely looking for a debate, which I am not interested in.
Since you still have not asked your questions again, I am going to assume you do not have any left, as there's nothing I can see in that wall that is a legitimate question.
"so which of the favours of your Lord do you deny?"
I don't really know what you're talking about with this, and that's the only other question besides "why you and not me?"
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: | | What questions, then? Because I asked you to repeat them and you still haven't. Give a simple and direct question without making it a wall of text, as there's a good chance I may have overlooked something you asked while skimming through. |
you are more than welcomed to read my posts
like i have read yours
thank you!
and thank you for admitting you skimmed instead of reading.
Love is skimming i guess |
So, you don't have any questions. The only one I can see is "Why do you get this and I don't" which I already answered. Also when you post things that are "refutations", you are absolutely looking for a debate, which I am not interested in.
Since you still have not asked your questions again, I am going to assume you do not have any left, as there's nothing I can see in that wall that is a legitimate question.
"so which of the favours of your Lord do you deny?"
I don't really know what you're talking about with this, and that's the only other question besides "why you and not me?" |
no i have questions.
why are you putting words in my mouth? i even said the questions to you.
ignoring them, and ignoring me when i tell you there are questions, just to say
"there are no questions"
is called lying
(Matthew 7:12)
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.
please read instead of skim and get back to me with an honest reply
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