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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

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Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:39 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

You're not asking as someone with an open mind, you're just looking for a fight and to text wall. Keep it up.

nope. sufficient is God as witness between you and I.

i don't presume to know the contents of your heart, so don't presume to know the contents of mine. that is what God is aware of only.

i have been more than patient, fair, and considerate. i don't understand what you would want from me to convince you of that.

you have continually mocked me and avoided rational discourse.
this is not what you would love done to you.
what good do you offer as a Christian by doing this in the name of Jesus?

surely God would reward you for your efforts and not suffer them to be lost. were you to call to the truth then how could He put it to waste?

regardless of your answer or lack thereof -- it should be an action made vying for God's countenance, not an action to satisfy an audience.

HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic

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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:37 am Post subject:

It's a little insulting that you think I'm stupid enough to believe you're interested in discussion when really you want to proselytize.

finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

Reputation: 13

Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:02 am Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

It's a little insulting that you think I'm stupid enough to believe you're interested in discussion when really you want to proselytize.

i have no idea why you think you know my intentions better than i do.

i repeatedly and sincerely attempted to have discussion with you. instead, you are hostile and always presuming the worst -- when you have no right to do so as a Christian.

i have given genuine talking points, and you avoid them and excuse doing so by attacking me.

what is insulting -- to you, and your religion, and not to me --
is that you would behave this way when you are invited to peaceful, friendly discussion.

greatsage wrote:

this reply still applies to what you just said. you could have given me courteous, respectful behaviour, and you refuse to do so -- just to demean me.
how are you doing any goodness here instead of just being silent? do you really not know what Christianity teaches yet?
if so, why don't you practice it and be nice to your neighbor? where is your other cheek?

why would you actually lie against me with an accusation like this -- on such a serious topic?
do you feel secure from God holding you accountable for harming your neighbor?

as i said before,
i have been more than patient, fair, and considerate. i don't understand what you would want from me to convince you of that.

do you want me to bare your insults and lies until you're convinced? or do you really just not want to tell me how to have a discussion with you?
it seems the only terms you ever want to set are hostile.

https://youtu.be/lmhOCSK0g28
https://youtu.be/ks7ZvMxWO0I

here's two lectures from a former deacon that converted to Islam -- giving a history of early christianity, and the story of his journey to islam.
hopefully you can appreciate him, since he is not me. he is very informative, and i'm sure you'll learn tons. may God guide you.

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Channel GannoK
pffrt

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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:39 pm Post subject:

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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

Reputation: 13

Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:40 am Post subject:

Channel GannoK wrote:

i really do hope things go well for you, and soon. don't forget to update us

btw what is that game at the bottom? is that doom 2?

HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic

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Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 228

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject:

If you have any legitimate questions about my faith, go ahead and ask, but I already said I'm not interested in debate and not interested in Islam. You are steadfast in your beliefs, as I am in mine.

HotHeap
!BEWARE! Deletes post on answer

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Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 4

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:29 pm Post subject:

it’s ok, china is exterminating sandniggers let China rule, we won’t have talix anymore

TrueOrange
How do I cheat?

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Joined: 28 Jan 2020
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:15 am Post subject:

I'd say avoid the argument. Let's talk about all the delicious food we could cook and share over a meal.

finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

Reputation: 13

Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:57 am Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

If you have any legitimate questions about my faith, go ahead and ask, but I already said I'm not interested in debate and not interested in Islam. You are steadfast in your beliefs, as I am in mine.

> You are steadfast in your beliefs, as I am in mine
this can not be. one who is steadfast to the truth can not be as one who is steadfast to falsehood. a servant to a wicked master is not like a servant to an upright master. achieving certitude cannot occur by virtue of the person's own ability, it is solely a gift from God that is granted to people as a favor upon them.
certainty is the internalisation of knowledge in the heart that will not turn, change, or waver in the heart.

God specifies that the people of certainty will be the ones who will be able to benefit from the signs and proofs; the person who achieves certainty is never heedless of God, and sees signs of Him in everything

> If you have any legitimate questions about my faith, go ahead and ask
i'm sure i've asked plenty in this thread.

will you acknowledge that we Muslims submit to God alone, and do you understand what we mean by this in our declarations and intentions? if no, do you think you could explain why (or can i help understand at all)?

should we submit to other than God, or take any other Lord beside Him, when He is the Lord of all creation?

who could prevent God Almighty from destroying Jesus and his mother, upon them be peace?

why do you believe Jesus is worthy of worship, when he never asked for worship or claimed to be God -- but it is self-evident that God is the creator and sustainer and is alone deserving of all worship?

if God sends a Messenger, shouldn't you follow that Messenger? what criterion would you use to establish that God sent a Messenger or evaluate these claims?

isn't it our natural state to submit to God, and worship Him alone? wasn't Adam created upon this path? if we were created upon this path, then why is it necessary in your belief that God becomes creation? (unless you are one of the christians who reject this. every christian i discuss with is different)

what would your say is our purpose for being created? who exactly is God to you?

why does He need to die for our salvation instead of forgiving us? isn't He sufficient as Savior as the Living, Eternal God?

> and not interested in Islam

can i also ask, aren't you supposed to love your neighbor as yourself? how do you accomplish this without knowing him, and when he pleads with you that you misunderstand him?
can you please tell me what you believe the point of the Bible is, and since you so thoroughly reject it -- explain what you believe the point of the Qur'an to be?
also, would you tell me briefly in your own words what the focus of Christianity is, and what the focus of Islam is?

thank you SO much for reading and for taking time out of your busy day to answer these questions.
i am genuinely trying to understand you as a christian neighbor, and as someone who converted to christianity. it really does mean a lot to me to get these answers from your perspective, because i have always empathized with you and even younger looked up to you for being articulate.
i really dislike this enmity between us and i am willing to come to whatever terms you need me to approach, to satisfy you and sufficiently apologise for my shortcomings in kindness to you. i am obtuse in interacting with others, i acknowledge this, but i am entirely sincere in my questioning you -- and again, so happy that you are taking the time and consideration for discussing things with me.

please also feel free to answer these at a comfortable pace for you. if you'd like to pick one of these for now to discuss, or would like to answer them as sufficiently as you prefer -- i will do my best to reciprocate an honest discussion.

i would also like to say, that i am so sorry if this barrage of so many questions has overwhelmed you -- please at least focus on answering these two underlined questions for now.

may God guide you, give you His mercy, make you well pleasing to Him, and make your heart steadfast in His religion.
may He reward you for your patience and efforts with me. aameen.

Quote:

beautiful song: the 99 attributes/names of God/Allah in Islam--
there is no God but He, and to Him alone belong all the Best of Names

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgm3puP3tMA

HackOtaku
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject:

>what would your say is our purpose for being created?

To learn about what is evil and what is good and to choose good. In this vein, we also have to recognize our own innate evil tendencies and our need for salvation, which is the purpose of Christ.

>Who exactly is God to you?

This is a loaded question. What do you mean, who? God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, but I'm sure you know that I believe that, and I'm sure it didn't further answer your question, but I don't really understand what you're asking.

I'll leave a quote from CS Lewis behind.

Quote:

If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.

finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

Reputation: 13

Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

Quote:

>>Who exactly is God to you?
> This is a loaded question.
no it's rather direct, i didn't mean it to be loaded.
i think i gave a few descriptors prior of what we Muslims believe when we say "God"; such as the 99 Attributes video I sent prior;
to us, God is The Peace, The Master, The Loving, etc.
every Muslim is in agreement on the theological definitions of "God/Allah", and we refer to clear instructions for such. similarly we Muslims are in agreement by our meaning for "Jesus/Messiah".

>What do you mean, who?
i mean what is God to you? is it a rock? to some people it is fire, some think it is Zeus, some think it is a water serpent or whatever. some people think they are God...

so, i'm trying, but i don't understand what you mean by
>God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit,
that's three persons? but the Prophets teach that God is One, and unique, and without equal or comparison.
we believe in Jesus, and we also believe in God's angel Gabriel, the Holy Spirit; yet these are creations-- that submit to God.

because of this, i am struggling to understand what you mean when you say God is these three, when God is one.
i am begging you to put this into better terms for me to understand, so I know how and why you accepted it and what the answer is.

>but I'm sure you know that I believe that,
well... no. i discuss religion with a lot of christians, and they define those things each differently. some of them have their personal definitions, others have definitions they have followed, and others still incline to thoughts that are "heretical" by others' standards of Christianity -- so i am trying to ascertain exactly what you believe and how you are discerning salvation through it

>and I'm sure it didn't further answer your question, but I don't really understand what you're asking.
"God" what does this word really mean to you , especially as someone who was an atheist?
how did you deny there was a God before, how do you accept "God" now, and what is it that you mean you accept?
the three persons you mentioned don't really give a whole lot of explanation for what your theological beliefs are, or what your creed is, or what mechanism you used to arrive at this answer. Christians mean different things by those terms -- and the trinitarian conception of them was not among early Christians. so is it something different you mean by "God", or similar? can you be specific?
what exactly do you worship?

i am more than happy to answer these questions too, and specify the mechanism for these answers, but i don't want you to feel like you're being preached to.

>>what would your say is our purpose for being created?
>To learn about what is evil and what is good and to choose good. In this vein, we also have to recognize our own innate evil tendencies and our need for salvation, which is the purpose of Christ.
for the most part, this is very agreeable to Islam, and so i would have to agree with this -- but i am afraid that what i am agreeing to is outside of the scope of your intended meaning. so i need more elaboration from you, if you wouldn't mind.
did you come up with this or is there a reference you are using that can specify it for me?

indeed, we Muslims would agree that the purpose for every Prophet is to be sent to their peoples to guide them in their need for salvation;
that God sends Prophets to peoples to warn them of their evil tendencies, to convey to them the criterion from God with which to discern between good and evil, and to remind of the guaranteed Day of Recompense where we will each be held accountable for our good and evil deeds.
God's commandments are to the good, permissible, righteous -- and evil is that which transgresses against those limits He set.
in loving God, we obey Him and keep His commandments.

this Prophetic guidance and Revelation is God's grace,
and His merciful means of leading us to Him & to His salvation,
and to attain the most upright stature of our natural state which we were created upon: submission to Him and His guidance.

the highest form of good conduct, then, would be to worship Him in full sincerity, and live & die in submission to God.
He alone is sufficient for us & our salvation, He is our Lord and to Him is our final return.
this is the purpose which i know God to have intended us in our creation, and which He has called to all peoples-- to each having sent guides; the way, the truth, the life through which to come to Him, which He ordained and sustains.

i hope these added details assist you in answering my questioning.
thank you so much again, may God reward you and guide you.

Br. Jacob Williams wrote:

C. S. Lewis argued that a man claiming to be God must be either a lunatic, a liar, or truly the Lord.
Likewise, a man claiming to be a Messenger of God must be either insane, dishonest, or just what he says he is.

I judged, based on my reading of history, that Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not have been either of the former two. The facts of his life and ministry reveal an honest man in full possession of his rational faculties.

By contrast, it wasn’t hard for me to avoid Lewis’s trilemma, because Muslims simply do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) ever claimed to be God. Rather, we hold him to have been another prophet like Moses, Abraham, and Isaac (peace be upon them all).

The final piece of the puzzle fell into place upon my learning of the long process of redaction and recomposition that produced the canon that became the Bible. This was consistent with the Islamic narrative of an earlier revelation that, though true, was imperfectly preserved.
The Qur’an was the unification and confirmation of what the Bible merely tried to assemble.

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HackOtaku
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

that's three persons? but the Prophets teach that God is One, and unique, and without equal or comparison.
we believe in Jesus, and we also believe in God's angel Gabriel, the Holy Spirit; yet these are creations-- that submit to God.

because of this, i am struggling to understand what you mean when you say God is these three, when God is one.
i am begging you to put this into better terms for me to understand, so I know how and why you accepted it and what the answer is.

I understand that it is complicated, and I am not going to pretend that I have the means to explain it to you in a way that you will grasp, not because of any lack of intellect on your end, but due to me knowing the limits of my ability to explain such a thing.

What my belief is is that God is love, and that love exists as a relationship between three persons, all of the same "substance" (infinite and holy). So The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, but, there are not three Gods, there is only the single triune "God", which is infinitely loving, and who wants to bring people into this loving relationship through Jesus.

>i mean what is God to you?

God is love.

Channel GannoK
pffrt

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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:13 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

Quote:

You and i know what's best for CEFRS. Just stop replying and let his ramblings go into the ether for some youtuber to discover or something. Just as bad as any sort of ideological crusade, like that of white supremacy, jewish supremacy, black supremacy, only his is entirely religious. No point.
_________________

finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?

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Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

Quote:

>I understand that it is complicated, and I am not going to pretend that I have the means to explain it to you in a way that you will grasp, not because of any lack of intellect on your end, but due to me knowing the limits of my ability to explain such a thing.
first, i'm going to apologise for using this against you, because you've said it to me -- but i mainly hope for your reflection:
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

an immediate disqualifier for other religions like judaism, is that they claim the answers and salvation, but don't invite others to it.
that makes christianity and islam qualifiers; they not only claim to have the answers but also invite others to it.

the way of the Prophets has always been to give evidence, reasons, and signs for us to know God; they are faultless examples of the highest character, who make a perfect case for God's existence and His religion, justice, and mercy. they are meant to be imitated.
it is an integral part of our religion, Islam, which we believe is the religion of the Prophets, to understand the arguments and evidences that God presents to the readers and audiences--as a case for the believer--especially so that we may implement these lessons in our lives, and call others to the truth from Him.
blind belief simply is not rationally or spiritually agreeable (not that i am accusing you of it), and we are not allowed any part of it.

that is why, for example, God directly instructs the Believers on what to say to certain people, to have their hearts reflect upon the truth. God presents to us many arguments, examples, and parallels; a clear instruction.
continually we are called to reflect on God's signs, God's mercy, God's love, and God's examples.

these are just some of the divine attributes/names that God has revealed of Himself to us; there is no God but He, and to Him alone belong all the best of names.

>>i mean what is God to you?
>God is love.
we are in agreement again.

>So The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, but, there are not three Gods, there is only the single triune "God", which is infinitely loving, and who wants to bring people into this loving relationship through Jesus.
i don't think Jesus ever taught this. can you present some evidence for it, from Jesus' words? i know that Jesus taught that "God is One"; "my God and your God".
never did I know Jesus taught about "triune", or that he was God. even if the new testament relayed this (which i have never found), how do you conclude it is authentic transmissions of the Messiah's words?

these concepts are also not reconcilable with the teachings of the Prophets in the Tanakh (your old testament) -- can you reconcile these? is the old testament wrong, or why can't they be reconciled? (these may seem loaded but i genuinely don't understand these discrepancies)

how did you accept things of such important matters if you do not have a way of expressing or sharing that justification for your eternal salvation?

Islam made the most sense out of the religions i studied, it appealed to my natural instincts and rational mind.
the Qur'an and its truth were too heavy to deny, and ultimately Islam compelled me to the choice of either denying what i knew was the truth, or submitting to it and living upon it. it's been the best decision i've made, giving me clarity i've longed for and suffered without in my prior life of ignorance, and so i eventually realised i was always a muslim and testified to islam.
no other religion really provided what islam does, or was sufficient in addressing the contentions other religions would present for me.
& the more I learned of Islam and the Prophet ﷺ, the more i grew enamored with the undeniable.
even in Islam, i found the highest justification for belief in Jesus and clarity of his preaching,
& so even to honor my parents and the values they raised me on as a christian, to be honest to those i could only submit to islam

>there is only the single triune "God"
this simply doesn't make sense to me.
can you explain how this is not an oxymoronic statement? single triune? isn't that like saying a square circle?

monotheism simply can't operate with these parameters of 'multiple' or 'three' or 'triune'. these are forms of limited polytheism, and God warns us that it is polytheism.

similarly, these statements don't make sense:
the objection is long so i put it tiny. this is just one of several objections i can make, and Islam makes many more; so do other Christians.

>So The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, but, there are not three Gods, there is only the single triune "God"
there seems to be 7 propositions here, and looks in general form of the athanasian creed.

thus the definition of the Trinity -- with any of these propositions being incorrect, or any two contradictory, then the Trinity God could not exist.

let Father be designated as x,
Son as y,
and Holy Spirit as z.
God can be designated as G.
then
x = G, y = G, and z = G.
but if this is true, then it logically follows (according to Leibniz's principle of identity)
that x = y, x = z, and y = z.

this however violates propositions 4,5,6 as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from each other
another approach would be to construe G as a general term; thus x is a G, y is a G, and z is a G. but this would contradict proposition 7, and constitute tritheism.

hackotaku i can not get out of this dilemma.
if x, y & z are identical with G, then we simply have one person, or three names for one person. this is modalism and denies the 3's eternal coexistence in the trinity.

if x, y and z are a G (i.e. belong to a classification), then we have three divine persons, which is tritheism.

we can solve the first; the contradiction can be removed by altering propositions 4,5,6.
we can solve the second; by altering proposition 7.

however taken altogether, these 7 propositions portray an inconsistent set that are simply unacceptable parameters for a coherent description or identity of God, and it logically follows that the Trinity definition must be false.

please help me understand what could be such a strong justification for you for such a strange assertion and theology.

what is objectionable to "God is One"? how is it wrong?

why is God's infinite love allowing salvation for you,
someone who accepts a trinity
without being able to articulate it well enough to defend it to others who need the defense --
but not allowing salvation for me,
someone in need of the defense and reason you have,
someone who can't accept a trinity because of a lack of evidence or reason or authenticity,
and who submits to God alone without partners because of all of the evidences and reasons before me? God alone is sufficient for me as Lord; why do i need a trinity for salvation?

the Qur'an alone is sufficient to explain itself, to defend itself, to prove itself, and teaches us how to do so as well.
there is no other religion like that, and speaks with such intimate awareness and love of its reader.

how did you manage to reject Qur'an and Islam -- when they are such serious matters about God?
surely it should be so important, that you'd investigate it thoroughly from authentic resources.
please explain, you must have the ability to explain why you reject this?

HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic

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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:29 am Post subject:

Channel GannoK wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

Quote:

I might as well explain my own beliefs, it's not like he'll be able to convince me otherwise.

>"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

And I'm not going to claim to have sufficient understanding of the trinity of God, but I fully believe in it. I have enough understanding to understand it myself, which is the most important thing for me, of course. I wish I understood it to the point of explaining it to others, but I'm not there yet.

>can you present some evidence for it, from Jesus' words?

From John 10:

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God"

So not only did Jesus say that he and his Father are one, but the Jews understood his claim.

Additionally:

-----

I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you

------

The Spirit he is referring to here is the Advocate, The Holy Spirit. He also claims here that all that belongs to The Father is his. Do prophets make claims to all that The Father has? I don't recall any prophet to be so bold as that. This isn't the first time Jesus has made a point to single himself as something different from a prophet.

I understand your issue with the Trinity, I don't fault you at all for it. I believe in it even though I do not believe I will be able to fully understand it. That's the nature of God though, awesome, mysterious, and not at all easy to understand by any stretch. I don't count the level of complication the Trinity adds to the understanding of God's nature against its validity though. If anything, it being such a complicated and difficult to grasp concept adds more credibility to it. That's what I was getting at with the CS Lewis quote before. If Christians were just making stuff up, of course it would be easier and we'd be better off if we simplified God down, but that's not the way God is.

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