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DKMikey
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: $600 Computer Build |
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1. This is my first computer that I plan to build
2. I do not need any software included in the budget, not even windows, because I sail the high seas, have an eye patch, and carry a parrot on my shoulder
3. No need for a mouse, keyboard, or monitor
4. The only intensive thing I will be using this desktop for is gaming.
Also, please note that I will be asking a lot of questions, considering I don't know in-depth details about computer hardware. Bear with me, and if you're fed up, just stop replying and/or send me a google link.
Thanks!!
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Haswell
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DKMikey
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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About how heavy will this computer case be with all the components inside? If I'm about average strength, could I easily lift it by myself if needed?
Not so sure if I'll need 1TB of HDD space. My current laptop has 103 GB of storage, and I've only used about 50 GB. Could you recommend a 500 GB 7200 RPM, cheaper HDD? Maybe then I could upgrade something else.
What exactly is CrossFireX support? I've seen it a lot but still don't know what it does.
I've heard that I shouldn't skimp on a power supply. Will this be enough to power everything in the computer? If I decided to look for PSUs, how can I ascertain this?
Is this a 1x 4GB stick? Wouldn't a 2 x 2GB stick be cheaper in the short run? Or should I just stick with the 4GB stick?
What exactly are these used for, and how do I tell a quality MoBo from a crappy one?
After looking at some builds online, a lot of people suggest the AMD Phenom II x 4 Black Edition. What's the difference between the Intel and AMD processor, and which one is better for gaming?
| Haswell wrote: | | Not the best, but it'll last for maybe 2-3 years in your case. |
Would I have to invest a lot more to get it to last longer? My max budget is really $600, but I do like to play FPS games with at least decent quality with a minimum of 60 FPS at all times. :\
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Haswell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| DKMikey wrote: | | About how heavy will this computer case be with all the components inside? If I'm about average strength, could I easily lift it by myself if needed? |
The case I suggested weighs 14lb (or ~6.5kg). With all the components inside it'll probably go up to ~10-15kg. For comparison, A dictionary weighs 6.5lb ( http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-American-Dictionary-University-Press/dp/0195392884/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309161319&sr=8-1 ).
| Quote: | | Not so sure if I'll need 1TB of HDD space. My current laptop has 103 GB of storage, and I've only used about 50 GB. Could you recommend a 500 GB 7200 RPM, cheaper HDD? Maybe then I could upgrade something else. |
Since you enjoy FPS games and have a habit of obtaining software through questionable means, I assumed 1TB to be necessary. Besides, 1TB drives only costs $10-15 more, so it would be more cost-efficient. But if you prefer a 500GB one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136769
| Quote: | | What exactly is CrossFireX support? I've seen it a lot but still don't know what it does. |
CrossFireX simply put, is the technology used to pair up another video card of the same model (not necessarily the same brand) with an existing card to boost performance. The scaling isn't always perfect though, but most games today would experience at least a 50% boost in framerates, more if there are existing CF profiles for the particular games, which optimizes the calculations distributed among the cards (don't quote me on this). Anandtech provides a decent database on the performances of cards in a wide variety of games, and includes benchmarks for single and dual-card configurations. In your case though, I had to pick a 6850 to fit within your budget, but if you could spend $20-30 more you'd want to grab a 6870 instead. ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161349 )
| Quote: | | I've heard that I shouldn't skimp on a power supply. Will this be enough to power everything in the computer? If I decided to look for PSUs, how can I ascertain this? |
Indeed you shouldn't cheap out on power supplies, otherwise you'd run the risk of the module being underpowered and/or out of spec in power delivery, ripple suppression and unsatisfactory over-current/power protection, not to mention the potential of having fireworks inside your machine. Corsair makes decent PSUs from the experiences of many computer enthusiasts, and has great customer service. Google for them, you'll find quite a few instances on where their representatives would replace/repair parts with little to no hassle to the customer (see: Blown-up H70). Back to the topic though, the PSU I picked is good enough for your build, but not if you decide to upgrade (say, adding another video card for CFX), and if you don't mind a bunch of cables snaking around your case.
| Quote: | | Is this a 1x 4GB stick? Wouldn't a 2 x 2GB stick be cheaper in the short run? Or should I just stick with the 4GB stick? |
Indeed, I picked a single 4GB stick. As the motherboard I chose only has two memory slots, running a single stick now would allow for future upgrades, where you can simply add another 4GB stick instead of replacing two 2GB sticks with 4GB ones. Contrary to belief, running memory in complete channels won't really see much of a performance increase in RL situations (encoding might be a couple seconds faster, almost zero impact on gaming and whatsoever).
| Quote: | | What exactly are these used for, and how do I tell a quality MoBo from a crappy one? |
IMHO, a MoBo is a Mobo (after looking past all the bling). Only differences are the MTBF (mean time before failure) , performance speeds (only apparent in synthetic benchmarks), overclocking potential and hardware support (PCI-E slots, SATA ports, peripherals such as USB). "Crappy" in my definition would be one that isn't overclocking friendly, but that doesn't really concern the general consumer... This MoBo only has a single PCI-E slot, so there is no normal CFX/SLI support (though if you need to add another card, might as well upgrade to a more potent one instead). Note that although this motherboard is cheap (only two memory slots, one PCI-E slot, H61 chipset, etc...), you'll find it more than enough for your gaming needs.
| Quote: | | After looking at some builds online, a lot of people suggest the AMD Phenom II x 4 Black Edition. What's the difference between the Intel and AMD processor, and which one is better for gaming? |
The architecture of the Phenom II is quite old already by today's standards (3-4 yr/o, I think?), doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. When overclocked they really shine, but still won't be able to stand up to Intel's offerings. Intel processors simply offer higher performance than AMD ones http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/2 ). Think of it this way: AMD is for the budget concious with high flexibility, Intel is a beast in raw power. With the i5 2400, unless you are a hardware enthusiast, it should last you for quite a while until your next upgrade, and even then your CPU should be one of your lower priorities.
| Quote: | | Would I have to invest a lot more to get it to last longer? My max budget is really $600, but I do like to play FPS games with at least decent quality with a minimum of 60 FPS at all times. :\ |
Your build would actually last for a long time if you don't mind lowering image quality for higher performance in some games (Crysis, Metro 2033, STALKER series, Battlefield), but even then you probably won't have to get past the default "medium" settings to reach 60 FPS. CoD wise, just don't worry about it. Extra budget would always help, but it may or may not be worthy for your purpose.
Also, I accidentally left out an optical drive in this build, but I'm pretty sure you can just reuse your existing one. Also, Win7 can be installed via USB ( http://download.cnet.com/Windows-7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool/3000-18513_4-10972600.html ).
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Daniel.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Haswell, would the 6850 gfx card run well with a 500W PSU?
and why not go for AMD Mobo and Processor, aren't they cheaper?
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Haswell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Cheaper, yes. Lower performance, also yes. I'm guessing that OP isn't the type of person who changes out his hardware ever 6 months, so he might as well grab something that would last him down the road. If he really needs to upgrade, Ivy Bridge is coming out sometime between Q4 2011 - Q2 2012.
The 6850 consumes ~250w under load ( http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2010/10/22/ati-radeon-hd-6850-review/9 ), CPU + MoBo ~ 130w, HDD + other stuff ~30w. These calculations are based on a worst case scenario as well (Furmark, Prime95, heavy disk access, all at once), so during a normal gaming session power consumption shouldn't even exceed 400w. Speaking of which, the PSU can supply at least 30A on the 12v rail (360w), so the processor and the video card should never be strained for power. A 500w PSU should be plenty.
That is, unless OP puts tons of high-wattage fans into his rig (Deltas, SA, AP-31). Highly unlikely, I think.
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Daniel.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Haswell wrote: | Cheaper, yes. Lower performance, also yes. I'm guessing that OP isn't the type of person who changes out his hardware ever 6 months, so he might as well grab something that would last him down the road. If he really needs to upgrade, Ivy Bridge is coming out sometime between Q4 2011 - Q2 2012.
The 6850 consumes ~250w under load ( http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2010/10/22/ati-radeon-hd-6850-review/9 ), CPU + MoBo ~ 130w, HDD + other stuff ~30w. These calculations are based on a worst case scenario as well (Furmark, Prime95, heavy disk access, all at once), so during a normal gaming session power consumption shouldn't even exceed 400w. Speaking of which, the PSU can supply at least 30A on the 12v rail (360w), so the processor and the video card should never be strained for power. A 500w PSU should be plenty.
That is, unless OP puts tons of high-wattage fans into his rig (Deltas, SA, AP-31). Highly unlikely, I think. |
Ah thanks, didn't really know that, so is Intel better for gaming wise?
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Haswell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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In short, yes.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/129
Benches for Starcraft II, one of the more CPU intensive games today. Intel clearly takes the crown. In other games though, the difference in performance may be lower, but Intel would usually stand out by 5-10 FPS higher than AMD.
AMD will be releasing their next-generation processors later this year, from rumors they will still be slower than the current second-gen Intel Core i series. No solid numbers yet though.
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DKMikey
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'll go with the 1TB hard drive. Although I may not need it, double the storage for $15 more is nice.
Would you recommend getting the 6870 instead? I don't think I'd mind going a bit above my budget if it is worth it (I'm not poor, just cheap).
I actually don't have an old desktop anymore, but I do have a laptop with an optical drive. If I can install Windows 7 on a USB, then I guess I'll just live without the optical drive. If I were to buy any, are there any you'd suggest? The $21 ASUS OEM looks nice.
I normally prefer performance over graphics, but I heard anything over 60 FPS is overkill, because apparently the human eye can only see at 60 FPS. If you were to guesstimate, how long (#years) would the computer last (I don't really mind keeping some games on low graphics)?
Also, would it give me any benefits if I waited until AMD Bulldozer came out?
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Daniel.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| DKMikey wrote: |
I think I'll go with the 1TB hard drive. Although I may not need it, double the storage for $15 more is nice.
Would you recommend getting the 6870 instead? I don't think I'd mind going a bit above my budget if it is worth it (I'm not poor, just cheap).
I actually don't have an old desktop anymore, but I do have a laptop with an optical drive. If I can install Windows 7 on a USB, then I guess I'll just live without the optical drive. If I were to buy any, are there any you'd suggest? The $21 ASUS OEM looks nice.
I normally prefer performance over graphics, but I heard anything over 60 FPS is overkill, because apparently the human eye can only see at 60 FPS. If you were to guesstimate, how long (#years) would the computer last (I don't really mind keeping some games on low graphics)?
Also, would it give me any benefits if I waited until AMD Bulldozer came out? |
You really don't need an optical drive, save the money for other things
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Haswell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| DKMikey wrote: |
I think I'll go with the 1TB hard drive. Although I may not need it, double the storage for $15 more is nice.
Would you recommend getting the 6870 instead? I don't think I'd mind going a bit above my budget if it is worth it (I'm not poor, just cheap).
I actually don't have an old desktop anymore, but I do have a laptop with an optical drive. If I can install Windows 7 on a USB, then I guess I'll just live without the optical drive. If I were to buy any, are there any you'd suggest? The $21 ASUS OEM looks nice.
I normally prefer performance over graphics, but I heard anything over 60 FPS is overkill, because apparently the human eye can only see at 60 FPS. If you were to guesstimate, how long (#years) would the computer last (I don't really mind keeping some games on low graphics)?
Also, would it give me any benefits if I waited until AMD Bulldozer came out? |
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/291?vs=290
The 6870 actually holds a noticeably higher performance over the 6850. If you decide with the 6870 though, you'd also need a better PSU to handle the load. Right now I'm torn between getting a PSU that can do its job properly for minimal price, and one that offers more versatility for upgrades. It's up to you to choose though.
XFX 550W
XFX 650W
Before anyone accuses me of being a fanboy, those two PSUs are some of the lower-priced bricks that offers surprisingly decent performance. Both are based on Seasonic platforms, which are famous for high quality and performance.
XFX 550W review
XFX 650W (and 750W) review
Optical drives are pretty much the same in terms of performance (speeds differences are negligible in RL), so you can simply go for the cheapest ( http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=5&name=CD-DVD-Burners&Order=PRICE ).
Longevity of a rig depends on its expectations and usage. If you don't mind lowering quality for performance, your rig should easily last for at least 3 years as most upcoming games aren't exactly demanding (console ports). BUT I'm no prophet, I can't predict the future with no facts to reference from. Also, the smoothness of a game depends on both the framerate and the refresh rate of the monitor. 60FPS corresponds with most of today's 60Hz monitors, so higher framerates in theory won't be noticeable to humans simply because the monitory isn't capable of displaying more than 60FPS. So for higher-end monitors with 120Hz, 120FPS is the target to achieve 1:1 frame detection of the human eye as there would be no skipped frames.
Going with a Bulldozer build may save you some cash, but as of now there are still no official numbers regarding its performance, so there isn't really a fair comparison with today's offerings. One thing to note is that Intel processors rarely decrease their marketing price, so you may just end up waiting longer than you need to. Like I said though, AMD builds are usually cheaper for better price/performance ratio, but simply can't compete with Intel rigs for raw performance. The choice is yours, but personally I won't make predictions about unreleased products.
Some interesting materials on FPS vs. refresh rate:
http://www.overclock.net/video-games-general/371648-info-explanation-fps-vs-refresh-rate.html
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593
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DKMikey
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Haswell wrote: | | The 6870 actually holds a noticeably higher performance over the 6850. If you decide with the 6870 though, you'd also need a better PSU to handle the load. |
Well, if I have to buy a more expensive power supply I guess I won't go with the 6870.
| Haswell wrote: | | Right now I'm torn between getting a PSU that can do its job properly for minimal price, and one that offers more versatility for upgrades. It's up to you to choose though. |
Personally, I'll probably just get a PSU that can do its job properly for a minimal price, and if I decide to upgrade later, I'll just upgrade the PSU as well. After all, what if PSUs suddenly get smaller, more efficient, etc. or a GPU comes out and I can't run the computer even with my "I will upgrade in the future" PSU? Might as well just upgrade the PSU later. You're the computer expert, but this is just my opinion/mindset.
Chances are I won't get one. If Windows 7 can be installed via USB, I don't think I have anything that uses a CD/DVD drive. Unless if I get a new console and have to burn .iso image files onto discs, but I don't think I'll get a console if I have a trusty PC.
| Haswell wrote: | | BUT I'm no prophet, I can't predict the future with no facts to reference from. Also, the smoothness of a game depends on both the framerate and the refresh rate of the monitor. 60FPS corresponds with most of today's 60Hz monitors, so higher framerates in theory won't be noticeable to humans simply because the monitory isn't capable of displaying more than 60FPS. So for higher-end monitors with 120Hz, 120FPS is the target to achieve 1:1 frame detection of the human eye as there would be no skipped frames. |
Oh, the FPS explanation makes a lot of sense. So the average human eye can see past 60 FPS? Also, I just asked for you to "guesstimate" the number of years it would last, so I won't be quoting you on your approximation, just using your superior knowledge as a reference. 
| Haswell wrote: | | Going with a Bulldozer build may save you some cash, but as of now there are still no official numbers regarding its performance, so there isn't really a fair comparison with today's offerings. One thing to note is that Intel processors rarely decrease their marketing price, so you may just end up waiting longer than you need to. |
Might as well wait for the AMD bulldozer. It's coming out on July 11th (I think), so it won't be too bad to wait a few weeks. Meanwhile, are there any places that you'd recommend where I could learn more about building a computer, the parts, how everything works together, etc.?
P.S. Thanks for all the links and the helpful advice!
Edit:
On another note, laptop GPUs? Sounds awesome:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/27/nvidia-teases-a-pair-of-mystery-laptop-gpus-running-crysis-2-vi/
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Haswell
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Personally, I'll probably just get a PSU that can do its job properly for a minimal price, and if I decide to upgrade later, I'll just upgrade the PSU as well. After all, what if PSUs suddenly get smaller, more efficient, etc. or a GPU comes out and I can't run the computer even with my "I will upgrade in the future" PSU? Might as well just upgrade the PSU later. You're the computer expert, but this is just my opinion/mindset. |
This would actually be wise. Prices would most likely drop slightly after the release of newer PSUs over the next few years, as the market will be saturated with different models and brands that perform very similarly. 750-1000W PSUs should become more affordable as the technology matures, and there are currently only several OEMs capable of producing high-wattage bricks.
| Quote: | | Oh, the FPS explanation makes a lot of sense. So the average human eye can see past 60 FPS? Also, I just asked for you to "guesstimate" the number of years it would last, so I won't be quoting you on your approximation, just using your superior knowledge as a reference. |
Roughly guesstimating, at least 1.5 years of running most games on high, then you might need to tone down the quality. 2 years later it might be worthy of an upgrade, but it might stretch to 3 if you're lucky.
| Quote: | | Might as well wait for the AMD bulldozer. It's coming out on July 11th (I think), so it won't be too bad to wait a few weeks. Meanwhile, are there any places that you'd recommend where I could learn more about building a computer, the parts, how everything works together, etc.? |
You are correct, Bulldozer is right around the corner. Maybe not July 11th, but definitely before September.
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=183202
This guide should serve well as an introduction. Further specifics with more research. Forums populated with enthusiasts are also a great source of information. Few of my personal favorites are:
General stuff - http://hardforum.com/
PSUs - http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
And speaking of Crysis 2, if the DX11 addition really taxes on machines akin to the original Crysis, then those mobile GPUs are definitely impressive.
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DKMikey
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Haswell wrote: | | Roughly guesstimating, at least 1.5 years of running most games on high, then you might need to tone down the quality. 2 years later it might be worthy of an upgrade, but it might stretch to 3 if you're lucky. |
About 3 years on medium settings, or 3 years all together? I don't mind older graphics so much and am willing to go really low. However, when it's come to "my computer can't handle game X on the lowest settings," I'll probably upgrade.
| Haswell wrote: | | You are correct, Bulldozer is right around the corner. Maybe not July 11th, but definitely before September. |
Considering how much it's been delayed...it would be great if it was released in September. I actually just figured out that AMD still hasn't set a release date, so you're right, it probably won't come out so soon.
| Haswell wrote: | | And speaking of Crysis 2, if the DX11 addition really taxes on machines akin to the original Crysis, then those mobile GPUs are definitely impressive. |
I heard that the DX11 addition made Crysis 2 on low settings more impressive than Crysis on the highest settings (from the comments on that site). I hope that these aren't external GPUs, but I really suspect that they are.
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Haswell
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:12 am Post subject: |
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If you are willing to sacrifice image quality altogether, it should last you no less than 3-4 years.
That article suggests mobile GPUs in SLI, meaning a dual-card configuration. I'd like to see some benchmark numbers...
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